tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post3416471827757151401..comments2023-06-30T02:32:23.877-07:00Comments on Atheist Evolution: Catholic School System- Time to go!J Burgoynehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03283467415635166115noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-87518163571990612672010-09-27T16:44:02.909-07:002010-09-27T16:44:02.909-07:00Nikki, I admit I stepped beyond Jay's religiou...Nikki, I admit I stepped beyond Jay's religious focus in my argument, and my point rests on that distinction.<br /><br />The public system, just like the religious one indoctrinates, which is to say that it teaches a certain set of values and ideals regardless of if your values or ideals differ.<br /><br />As you point out the rich can afford to have their children raised according to their wishes but the rest of us are bound to the public system by taxation and force. That means we can not economically decide for ourselves what set of values and beliefs we want our children to be raised with and that is wrong. <br /><br />It is just as wrong as Catholic schools and for the same reason. The reason is force, the same force that makes you support the catholic board makes you support the public one as well. The fact that you may not have a problem with what your kids are taught in the public system is irrelevant.<br /><br />Eliminate the public system and you will no longer have a problem with government spending its(your) money on things that you don't want your money spent on. You will no longer have your kid come home and tell you that they learned that a madman like Louis Riel (who claimed to be a prophet sent by god) was a father of confederation. Or that s/he watched "An Inconvenient Truth" in science class and how the world is going to be flooded in the next 50 years, a truth held as incontrovertible not because of science but because of dogma, spin and hype.<br /><br />The fact is that it's not religion per se that is causing the problem, its the fact that you have been robbed of the right to make these choices. It's not religion you ought to be concerned with as a primary but freedom.<br /><br />I hope that makes my point clearer.Garner As Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839977721112094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-64173967466562064372010-09-26T16:43:48.585-07:002010-09-26T16:43:48.585-07:00I'm sorry, Martin. Perhaps I'm being thick...I'm sorry, Martin. Perhaps I'm being thick, but your logical processes are baffling me. How does an end to state run religious indoctrination logically result an end to all government education? AS Jay pointed out, there are certainly issues in our secular system, but religious education/indoctrination is certainly not part of the curriculum or mandate of the public school system. Since when is the Catholic school board the only choice for someone who wants to raise their children in accordance with their own ideals? Everyone is free to make their choice. OF course...people with more money are more free than those without...but that's a separate issue. <br /><br />It very much IS a question of religion. It is about the freedom of secular society to not be burdened with onus of financing a religious education that they neither support nor agree with.<br /><br />The conclusions you reach are illogical and have little relation to your arguments. At least...as far as what I have read. Perhaps there's more going on behind the scenes that I can't see. ;-)NikkiShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01226899621280662976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-57251683525949097042010-09-23T13:30:07.884-07:002010-09-23T13:30:07.884-07:00This isn't just a question of religion though ...This isn't just a question of religion though Jay. <br /><br />As a parent I should have a right to ensure that my kids are raised in accordance with my ideals. Whether those ideals are secular, religious or philosophical makes not one iota of difference. <br /><br />If you are going to call for the end of state run religious indoctrination then the logical result of such a thing, unless you want to abrogate freedom of religion and freedom of choice is to call for the end to all government education and a return to a private education system. <br /><br />If not you will trample over the ideas and ideals of Rights and your principle will be reduced to discrimination.<br /><br />But perhaps I'm waxing too philosophic and I should narrow my focus on here.Garner As Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839977721112094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-59227487627222502382010-09-21T20:16:12.180-07:002010-09-21T20:16:12.180-07:00Secondly I can agree that there are a lot of probl...Secondly I can agree that there are a lot of problems with the school system.<br />But to agree to fund the teaching of only some peoples personal religious beliefs and make a completely different school system for them and only them is unethical.<br /><br />No bones about it.<br /><br />It is a separate issue completely from the changes that need to be made in the secular school system.J Burgoynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03283467415635166115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-27079438931550537112010-09-21T20:14:33.637-07:002010-09-21T20:14:33.637-07:00Martin if there is an issue with what is taught in...Martin if there is an issue with what is taught in school, that is another issue altogether. But to conflate the issue with showing an inconvenient truth and teaching fantasy and personal beliefs of only a small portion of our country in a government funded school which discriminates against all other unsupported belief systems is a mistake.<br /><br />Religion simply does not belong in school.<br /><br />I am surprised to hear you supporting it.J Burgoynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03283467415635166115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-82272809625463913512010-09-21T16:46:00.414-07:002010-09-21T16:46:00.414-07:00Evan, you might want to read what I wrote, specifi...Evan, you might want to read what I wrote, specifically "I'm not so naive as to think that this bias/indoctrination will ever disappear but as you pointed out with religion it ought to be the Parents decision what their children are taught." <br /><br />I also pointed out some specific points of indoctrination and specific failures in the public schools teaching methods.<br /><br />These failures are caused precisely because the public system is underfunded and therefore UNABLE to teach as many students as fill the system. This overload is caused precisely because alternatives are made so prohibitively expensive by yet another government run bureaucratic monopoly. <br /><br />From your rant I can see that you are able to read, just perhaps that you are unable to comprehend.<br /><br />Cheers.Garner As Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839977721112094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-64448707697561245902010-09-21T14:47:56.220-07:002010-09-21T14:47:56.220-07:00So what does a secular school system 'indoctri...So what does a secular school system 'indoctrinate'? Critical analysis, skepticism, problem solving, and how to be Canadian citizen (aka how to live in society, the non-stated goal of school)? Huh? Secularism isn't an ideology in itself - and definitely no way comparable to a religious belief.<br /><br />So after you abolish public schools because they teach this nebulous left-wing curriculum (also curious as to what this curriculum features) what "market full of options" is there? Private schools and homeschooling? Because homeschooling and private schooling are completely free of 'indoctrination'. Yep.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13230723708840015304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-15341485921961277582010-09-21T05:40:48.578-07:002010-09-21T05:40:48.578-07:00Jay, schools showing "An Inconvenient Truth&q...Jay, schools showing "An Inconvenient Truth" in science class? That it was "the New Deal that ended the great depression? That "Canadians" won the war of 1812? That Louis Riel is a hero and a "Father of Confederation"?<br /><br />Hell in University I took a course called "Global Political Issues" I wrote a paper on "The Communist Manifesto" and the person who marked it slammed me for being such a strong opponent of Communism! His basic comment was the old "good in theory" BS.<br /><br />Ideologies are just as much indoctrination as religions. Today the political left owns the school system and for me that's just as damaging as any other ideology controlling what my kids learn.<br /><br />I'm not so naive as to think that this bias/indoctrination will ever disappear but as you pointed out with religion it ought to be the Parents decision what their children are taught. I'm not a big fan of school curriculum either. Kids learn just lie everyone else. What interests them spurs them to greater learning. If a kid is bored to death learning about the Dirty Thirties but is excited to learn about the age of enlightenment then what practical use is there in forcing him to "learn" one piece of history over another?<br /><br />This doesn't even touch on why how we learn in school sucks. Remember your childhood education? It can be summed up in most cases as "memorize this grocery list". The rare good teacher actually tried to get the kids to LEARN by induction but they usually didn't last long at it because the Kids, having had their minds dulled by the constant barrage of rote learning had already shut down and accepted that method.<br /><br />How much does this theory ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNOj-Js5YEI ) differ from the way you were taught?<br /><br />If you are at all interested in how and why public education needs to change (or some like me say needs to be scrapped) this website has some really interesting articles. http://www.pedagogicallycorrect.com/Garner As Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839977721112094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-65865421072653228882010-09-20T18:38:55.144-07:002010-09-20T18:38:55.144-07:00I am with you until you said that secular schoolin...I am with you until you said that secular schooling is indoctrination. Secular schools teach facts and history, not beliefs and opinions.<br /><br />That is the difference.<br /><br />Plus if you fund one religion, you then ethically should fund them all.<br /><br />Even the UN has heavily criticized Canada for this discriminatory policy. <br />It has nothing to do with where I want my money to go. It has to do with efficiency and improper funding. If we merge the school systems the surplus money goes to the children and their education.<br /><br />As you say, it IS written into the constitution, sadly. As we have said before, clearly no dogma should be immune to change and the rigours of critical thinking.<br /><br />It is a vicious circle only until the parents decide to teach their OWN children about opinion and belief. That is not education and shouldn't be a burden on the public to ensure that personal opinion and belief are passed on to their children.J Burgoynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03283467415635166115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-34741467501615215412010-09-20T14:28:02.788-07:002010-09-20T14:28:02.788-07:00First things first... the legalities. In Canada ...First things first... the legalities. In Canada the provision of public and catholic schools are written into the constitution. <br /><br />Yup we've been screwed up since day one. <br /><br />Now I'm a big (huge actually) advocate of the Constitution as a living document but unfortunately every time someone even thinks about a "constitutional amendment" the majority of Canadians start bitching. It's almost like they would rather commit Hari Kari than contemplate rational and reasoned changes to the BNA Act.<br /><br />My personal view is that every person who pays into the school system (those of us who pay school taxes) should have a choice of where to put their money. If you want to use the public system, fine, that's where your cash goes. If you want to spend it on religious schooling, fill your boots. And if you want to spend your money on a private school that ought to be your choice as well.<br /><br />This policy is actually advocated by The Freedom Party of Canada.<br /><br />Really I think the whole idea of government sponsored education is wrong, and it is as wrong for a catholic board as it is for a secular board and for the same reason. If the Catholic education is indoctrination then so is our government funded education system and for the same reason.<br /><br />Bin the whole thing and give parents the freedom and the ability to choose from a market full of options. <br /><br />Funding is only a problem because we have a public system. And that is because everyone wants a "free" education for their kids but no one want to pay for it. Every time someone says your taxes are going up we start bitching again as a result our systems are underfunded. <br /><br />It's a vicious circle that will only be stopped when it becomes the responsibility of the parent to choose and to pay in full for what he/she chooses.Garner As Misthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839977721112094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-26239432140464441642010-09-20T08:33:09.021-07:002010-09-20T08:33:09.021-07:00There are some small protests but no real movement...There are some small protests but no real movement to change yet.<br /><br />Sad really.J Burgoynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03283467415635166115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5734346441675318707.post-44909082997579997202010-09-20T08:26:22.293-07:002010-09-20T08:26:22.293-07:00For a minute I forgot about the schools systems on...For a minute I forgot about the schools systems on the mainland, here in Newfoundland we've had a secular system since '97 - are there any significant movements to change the systems in Ontario or Sask. (I doubt Québec or Alberta would be progressive enough)?Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13230723708840015304noreply@blogger.com